Uncovering Talent: Moody Nolan's Curt and Jonathan Moody on Perseverance, Practice, and People
Jonathan and Curt Moody by Sam Brown.
Driven by a desire to change a profession with little minority representation, Curt Moody opened Moody and Associates, starting a legacy of breaking down misconceptions, one by one. Curt then joined forces with the late engineer, Howard E. Nolan, who shared Curt’s ambition and ideals. Together, they created Moody Nolan, a firm founded on diversity, inclusion, and representation, and that continuously pushed back against the prevailing belief of the time that minority firms couldn’t design and deliver major projects. After forty years of persistence and demonstrated excellence, Moody Nolan became a nationally-renowned architecture firm, known for its diversity and design excellence.
In 2020, Jonathan Moody was named CEO, catalyzing the next era of design innovation. In 2021, the American Institute of Architects bestowed Moody Nolan with the AIA Architecture Award—the first African American owned firm to receive this honor. With more than 350 employees in twelve locations around the country, Moody Nolan transforms the built environment to catalyze social change and improve lives. In their conversation with Julia Gamolina, Jonathan and Curt talk about what they’ve learned as former Division I athletes that they bring to their work, their firm, and to nurturing talent, advising those just starting their careers to work as a team and persevere.
JG: I’m thrilled to be speaking with the two of you together. Curt, tell me first about starting Moody Nolan.
CM: I started the firm in 1982. I actually started with one other person, and she acted as both a secretary and an architect. Very early on, I got wind of a project that we went after in the first year, and through which we grew to eleven people. And we realized that we weren’t big enough! Eleven people seemed to be a lot compared to how we’d started, but it really wasn’t and we couldn’t handle the project with the other workload that we had. So I made up my mind at the time to grow and be the kind of firm that couldn’t question our size. I wanted us to be able to handle whatever project we went after.
The other thing that I’d like to mention is that when I started, minority firms were seen as secondary. They were known for associations with other firms, and frankly, I wanted to be a lead firm! So we sought to win awards and do projects that showcased that we had the capacity, ability, and talent to do larger work. That’s how it all started.
Did you start the firm before you became a parent Curt, or after?
CM: [Laughs] Before.
So how did things change for you after you became a father?
CM: I didn’t know that Jonathan wanted to be an architect until he was in high school! We have a thing at the firm where we identify who is the next you, and who is going to be your replacement. And I knew right away that Jonathan was mine. I asked him when he was at Cornell, and then again when he went on to Los Angeles for his Masters, if he’d come back to us, and he agreed that he would. From there, we started a process of leveraging what he knew, and what he grew to know at the firm, which put him in a position to take over my responsibilities. It was just that simple.
“Both of us playing Division I sports contributed to who we are...you practice, and you learn to rely on and work with others. You’re not by yourself out on the field – there are others that can carry some weight. That’s what being part of a team is. ”
Now Jonathan, tell me about growing up with the firm, and with architecture around you, and how you came to the realization that this world is what you wanted for yourself as well.
JM: The interesting part is that I thought that everything we went through as a family was normal [laughs]. I often heard, “We need to stop by the office after church on Sunday.” Now, when I need to quickly do something, I put my kids on the iPad, but back then, we would play around in the office. A lot of our vacations were around conferences too, so I was always adjacent to all aspects of the industry and culture. I especially loved seeing all the boards up for project submissions in the early stages of winning a project, and seeing all of that energy and passion that people had put into things.
Both of you were also college athletes while you studied architecture – Jonathan, you played football while studying architecture at Cornell, and Curt you played basketball while at Ohio State. That is really intense! Tell me about this.
JM: I remember the football coach saying to me, “You know, you might be a decent football player if you forget about this whole architecture thing.” At the same time, my architecture professors were saying to me, “You know, you might be a decent architect if you forget about this football thing.”
I would say a couple of things. The first is: don’t let anyone convince you that combining the other things that you love with architecture is impossible. There is a way to make it work. I remember being on both sides of the negotiation at Cornell, and having my dad’s example, and saying, “I think I can make this work if you just let me try.” I would ask to do my desk crits in studio earlier, so that I could also leave earlier to get to practice. By the time I got to my junior year, I think people could finally tell that I was serious about doing both.
A lot of it just comes down to time management, and one of the things culturally that is still a big factor in the profession is that you continue to make changes until the deadline. In school, you work all night until you have to pin up. But for me, if I had a 6am workout, and I need six hours of sleep to be sane, I need to get as much done during a certain time period as I can, and not let things drag on. We struggle at times in the profession to say, “Hey, I have a limited fee.” The culture is that we work on things as much as we can, but actually, you can stop and say, “I will work within the scope of this fee,” and a lot of that I learned by balancing other things that were important to me early.
I will also tell you this though — the spring semester is awful. In the spring, the football team didn’t have priority for the field for practices, so sometimes practices started at 8 or 9pm, and then by the time I was showered, I was getting to studio to do my work at midnight. But those semesters in the spring, where I had to make decisions and execute quickly because I didn’t have time to think, were also the semesters when I got my best grades.
CM: Both of us playing Division I sports contributed to who we are. Because you continuously have to practice! You practice, and you learn to rely on and work with others. You’re not by yourself out on the field – there are others that can carry some weight. That’s what being part of a team is. We’ve become team players because we’ve played on teams, and we’ve realized that everyone contributes differently. There isn’t one way, and that’s a good thing.
“If you’re in that conversation, and you’re not willing to admit that the reason you may be there is because someone took a chance on you, that takes us back. If you’re also unwilling to invite someone else to the conversation or to say, ‘Someone else should take my seat,’ that also brings us back.”
How have both of your roles evolved since you’ve both been working together?
CM: One thing that Jonathan is able to do is travel to our various offices, since we have twelve offices now. I’ve done less of that in recent years because I can – I have more of a design role in our HQ, and I work with many of our designers. My role has really transitioned from managing the firm and meeting with the accountants, with marketing, all of that, to not doing that anymore [laughs]. Jonathan does that now.
JM: I’ve learned way more about professional insurance, tax laws, HR requirements from state to state, and all of these things I didn’t have any idea about. Running an organization is really my top priority now, but I do intentionally try to work on a few projects, and to visit a lot of the different cities where we do work to stay in touch with people. I started by sitting in on marketing meetings, or tagging along to conversations with our lawyers, to being involved in all of that now. Every meeting.
For both of you who started as designers but moved into leadership and management roles, with many and different responsibilities, what advice do you have for those who are amazing designers and who would one day like to run and own a firm?
CM: Something that Jonathan and I developed with our sports background is making decisions quickly because of time constraints. You don’t have all the time in the world, but that can work to your advantage. We learned, from a design standpoint, to come up with a lot of different options, but then choose a direction to go relatively quickly. One thing I impress upon young designers is to make good decisions quickly, and let it be! You don’t have to solve every problem in the world – you’ll get there. Make the big decisions first, and then move on.
JM: My dad advised me to take some business classes while I was getting my B.Arch, and in terms of the task of the course and what we were supposed to do, the thing that was surprising and disappointing was that the skills weren’t so different from design. In that business class, I was frustrated, because here we were, on the other side of campus, focusing on very similar things. It was all about, “Hey, I have this idea for a business, and I need to go solve these issues.” And I remember thinking, “This is just like an architecture project – you gather information, you present your ideas, and then you figure out how to execute them.” The basic premise is the same. And I was disappointed to learn this because business school graduates make a lot more when they graduate [laughs]. At the end of the day, I realized that we have more skills than we realize.
In general, what have been some of the biggest challenges for you both in your careers?
CM: The biggest challenge is managing people. Not everyone comes from the same place, so understanding what the skills, talents, and abilities are is very important. And you have to learn to delegate. You can’t run a large firm if you hoard everything for yourself – you have to hire talent and release things. You hire good people to do good work, and you have to trust them to do that, on your direction. That’s something we’ve learned to do over the years, and we’ve hired better and better people.
JM: I would say that something that’s become a challenge is that you may think that broader issues in the world don’t affect your day-to-day, but they do. So many things affect this profession. How do we rally people to come together around something when everyone has differing opinions? That seems to be getting worse, not better, and that does have real outcomes on things we are trying to achieve.
“It’s important to look not at the person’s outside, but to look inward as much as you can. What are they bringing? What can they bring? Maybe they themselves don’t see what they can bring yet, but you know that the potential is there and just needs to be exposed.”
What do you do about this?
JM: At the end of the day, we’ve gone through a continuous effort in the last few years of going back to the values that we’ve always stood for. One of the things that have become big drivers for us is that if the elements in our processes aren’t improving people’s lives, then we shouldn’t be doing them. If an element improves lives and aligns with our values, that’s how we determine what we should and shouldn’t do. And we go from there.
Who are you both admiring right out?
JM: Kim Dowdell. She is the first Black female AIA President, and she was my classmate! I remember her from our days of saying to each other, “Man, how are we going to get this site model built?!” It’s been incredible to see her at the helm of the entire profession.
We’re all very lucky. Kim is one of the most sophisticated professionals I’ve ever encountered.
CM: The thing that strikes me today is a person’s ability to stand up and say what they really think. When someone is able to be real with you, even about bad news – that’s what I respect, and that’s what I look for.
Is there anyone you can think of that does this especially well?
CM: Obama does. In today’s world, it’s so tough to go against what everyone else wants to do, even if you know you’re right. It’s easier to go with what everyone else is saying. I respect the people that don’t, and that’s what I strive to do.
“The biggest mistake you can make when someone takes a chance on you is to be timid. Don’t present a small version of yourself! When you get the chance to take the helm, jump in with both feet and with your full self.”
How would both of you advise your peers in the profession to advance our practice toward being more equitable?
CM: How you look at the individuals that are contributing to your firm is very important – what can and can’t they do? It’s important to look not at the person’s outside, but to look inward as much as you can. What are they bringing? What can they bring? Maybe they themselves don’t see what they can bring yet, but you know that the potential is there and just needs to be exposed. Our role is to bring opportunities forward. And everyone’s talents won’t always be packaged in the same way. So what we try to do is to uncover everyone’s talents.
JM: Some of the biggest hurdles to advancing the conversation are the people that are already there in that conversation. If you’re in that conversation, and you’re not willing to admit that the reason you may be there is because someone took a chance on you, that takes us back. If you’re also unwilling to invite someone else to the conversation or to say, “Someone else should take my seat,” that also brings us back. When you look at various levels, and you talk about equity, all of the levels below the top of an organization, there’s a lot of movement. It’s really the tip-top that needs to challenge itself and say, “Hey, what am I willing to give up and what sacrifices am I willing to make so that someone can be here one day?” You have to be willing to take a chance.
My final question for you both is what advice would you give for those starting their careers in architecture?
CM: I use one word, all the time. Perseverance. People are going to knock you down and tell you that you can’t do something, all the time. There are obstacles that will always be there. Your job is to overcome them, period. No matter what the obstacle is, you can and will get over it in some way. Just keep going.
JM: And be a bit fearless! The biggest mistake you can make when someone takes a chance on you is to be timid. Don’t present a small version of yourself! When you get the chance to take the helm, jump in with both feet and with your full self. You’ll be more disappointed years later if you look back at that chance that someone gave you, knowing you didn’t go all in.