This X That: Danielle Rago and Honora Shea on Creating Narratives and Providing a Platform

By Julia Gamolina

THIS X THAT is an agency founded by Danielle Rago and Honora Shea that represents today’s most progressive architects, offering business development, PR and communications, and advisory services with an eye towards helping emerging practices identify and connect with the right partners.

Danielle Rago, co-founder and principal of THIS X THAT, was previously an architecture and design curator and writer. She has worked with the A+D Museum in Los Angeles and the Metropolitan Museum of Art and the Guggenheim Museum in New York. Her writing has been published in Abitare, Architect Magazine, The Architect’s Newspaper, Architectural Record, CLOG, Domus, LOG, PIN-UP, TANK, and WIRED Magazine, among others. Danielle holds a Master’s degree in Architecture History and Critical Thinking from the Architectural Association, London.

Honora Shea, co-founder and principal of THIS X THAT, was previously a writer and creative producer in the fields of contemporary art and architecture. She has worked in the offices of Steven Holl Architects in New York and at Vitamin Creative Space gallery in Beijing, and has produced and managed projects in the studios of artists Cao Fei in Beijing and Sharon Lockhart Los Angeles. Her writing on art and architecture has appeared online in Architectural Record, Artforum, Interview, T: The New York Times Style Magazine, and Wallpaper.

In their interview with Julia Gamolina, Danielle and Honora discuss how their varied experiences culminated in the agency they run today, and their holistic approach to architects’ profile development. They advise those just starting their careers to collaborate, remain open, and create your own way.

JG: How did an interest in design and the built environment develop for each of you?

DR: My interest developed as a child - my dad worked in, and still works in, commercial real estate. From a young age, I was brought up visiting building projects and later had a first hand experience when my parents built my childhood home. I remember walking onto the construction site and imagining what these spaces would become, which was one of my most formative experiences.

HS: Architecture is also a family business for me. My mother is an architect, my father is a city planner, and I have uncles and aunts that are architects as well. I was surrounded by architecture at home - books, models, drawings, discussions. We lived in an old Victorian house in Pittsburgh that was a perpetual renovation project, in a neighborhood with layers of history that was in constant flux. All of this instilled in me that design shapes our lives, not just individually, but collectively, and as communities. As a young adult, my interests were all over the place, but architecture always held my attention as a field that encompassed so many modes of impact at once.

‘Objects by Architects’ Pop-Up at MOCA Los Angeles,Trusses on Truck installation designed by Besler & Sons, Commissioned by THIS X THAT, Spring 2018. Photo by Injinash Unshin

‘A Cast of Things’ by The Los Angeles Design Group at bulthaup Chicago, presented by bulthaup and THIS X THAT during the 2017 Chicago Architecture Biennial. Photo by Brian Griffin

What did you learn during your college years that contributes to where you are today?

DR: I studied both Architecture and English at Lehigh University, and then completed my Masters in Architectural History and Critical Thinking at the Architectural Association in London. I’m glad that I had pursued an undergraduate liberal arts degree because I was never sure that I wanted to be an architect, and that inclination held true. I always loved the ideas and conversations that were happening within the discipline though, and was most interested in writing about them and connecting those conversations to a broader public.

HS: I never formally studied architecture - my Bachelor’s is in International Relations and Political Science. At some point, my mother advised me to get a liberal arts education rather than jump right into architecture school, which turned out to be valuable advice for me. I realized quite quickly that my skills tended towards the verbal rather than the visual, but being able to experience the wider world allowed me to understand that there are other ways to work in architecture than to practice it.

How did This X That come about?

DR: We started the company in the Fall of 2016. Prior to that, I was working as an independent architecture and design curator and writer, writing and organizing exhibitions predominantly about emerging architects whose expansive work was beyond the traditional scope of practice. I was also working with the A+D Museum in Los Angeles, and with friends and colleagues on a yearlong project called On the Road, where we exhibited and programmed site-specific events featuring young architects and designers. Showcasing this work to the public was what I was really interested in doing - creating narratives around that and providing a platform for these young offices to exhibit their work.

Honora and I had met at one of the On the Road exhibitions that I had co-curated in Palm Springs that was a series of installations around a swimming pool during Modernism Week in 2014. She was new to Los Angeles and was writing about the exhibition - we connected and became friends. We had been talking about collaborating in some way since then and eventually, there was a project that I was working on with an architect that I reached out to Honora for assistance. We worked together to find a new home for an installation that was previously exhibited at Coachella, and our company organically grew out of that. We soon began helping other young architects with installations and products, and by Fall 2016 it was time to finally formalize [laughs].

“We do work with a highly curated group of very innovative, emerging architects that are pushing the boundaries of contemporary practice...it’s our mission to bring these distinct voices into the arena.”

HS: In terms of how we got started, we really began because of a very natural merging of our complementary backgrounds. I was in the art world and Danielle was in architecture, but our commitment to explaining and promoting architecture’s cultural and social value to a broader audience was very aligned.

At the beginning, we didn’t really know what the shape of this company would be. We had been writers, so we first put our editorial contacts to work, because press was what our clients needed the most at the time and an area where we could see immediate results. Not too long after this we also started pitching, securing, and developing projects on behalf of our clients at various scales, from installations, to retail or commercial interiors to residential projects. Our goal ultimately is to be able to find those public projects for our clients that allow them to shape the future of cities and how we engage in the world.

I’ve worked with some of your clients for Madame Architect, and you do work with some of the most progressive architects today - ones that are reinventing practice and reimagining what design could do. Can you speak about this a little bit? What do you look for in who you decide to partner with?

DR: We do work with a highly curated group of very innovative, emerging architects that are pushing the boundaries of contemporary practice and that work across all scales - from product to site-specific installation and public art to interior architecture to ground-up buildings. It’s certainly intentional, as it’s our mission to bring these distinct voices into the arena. It can sometimes be challenging to pitch alongside established voices that are a little more experienced but we feel strongly that these firms deserve a spot at the table.

HS: We’ve been really lucky to work with some of the most provocative architects around, both in terms of the rigor of their work but also their commitment to research and to expanding the imagination towards what architecture can be and accomplish. We believe in the value of their work, and we try to showcase this as well through the programming that we do, like our Architecture 101 series or our Women in Architecture dinner series, which serve as platforms for bringing our clients’ discourse to broader and different audiences.

‘Towel Down,’ a collaboration and conversation between Jennifer Bonner/MALL and April Greiman at Knoll LA, presented by Knoll and THIS X THAT. Photo by Injinash Unshin

Confetti Courtyard installation by Clark Thenhaus of Endemic Architecture, Commissioned by Hem, Initiated by THIS X THAT. Photo by David Salpeter

You both see a very specific side of the industry. What patterns do you see with architects regarding PR, business development, and marketing, and what advice would you give?

HS: Many of the studios that we work with have come to fruition in the last ten years or less. They all have a specific point of view, and getting that across can sometimes be difficult when you’re just starting a studio and don’t necessarily have the resources that a large office has. We’re here to holistically guide these studios through their evolution, and communications and profile development will always be part of that long-term business development strategy for our clients. This takes time, continuous engagement, and a strong narrative that weaves a studio’s values and strengths together into a complete picture.

I’ll also say that it takes a certain flexibility and open mindedness in the sense that you have to be willing to speak about evolution and change as your business grows and as the projects that you’re interested in evolve. For us, it’s about placing the work in a broader context and celebrating the impact that that has on community and culture at large.

DR: Creating a story that effectively conveys ideas behind the process is an aspect to building projects that is important to us. We leverage press opportunities for business development, and what sets our business apart from other firms is that these two components - PR and business development - are very much integrated. They’re not two separate realms and the work is not in isolation.

“...you have to be willing to speak about evolution and change as your business grows”

Where are you both in your careers today?

HS: My career has been non-linear; my experiences both in-house at architecture firms and in the art world, in New York, Beijing and in Los Angeles, and writing, have all influenced what I do now. I’m lucky to have met Danielle when I did, and I think we both feel that we’ve finally arrived at something that truly combines our interests, values, skills and experiences. What’s great is that our backgrounds have made us both open to continuously evolving, and in a way, we’re just getting started. Right now, we’re here to figure out how to best serve our clients, and through that, the discipline as a whole.

DR: Starting This X That has really brought together my varied past experiences, similar to Honora, and a way to forge a new path in the field. Growing up around building and studying architecture, I didn’t necessarily see a career outside of being an architect for quite some time. It wasn’t until I began working at different types of architectural firms from interior architecture offices to architectural development firms, with cultural institutions like the Guggenheim, and with architectural publications such as RECORD and the Architect’s Newspaper, that I better understood my role within the discipline. I think Honora and I found a way to join our backgrounds in art and architecture in a really interesting way that significantly contributes to the field and offers something that I didn’t see available before.

THIS X THAT Women in Architecture Dinner at Bessou NYC, September 2018. Photo courtesy THIS X THAT

‘People Flowers Animals Trash,’ with Laurel Consuelo Broughton of WELCOMEPROJECTS and Joanna Grant at Aesop Downtown LA, presented by Aesop and THIS X THAT, October 2018. Photo courtesy THIS X THAT

What would you say have been the biggest challenges for you both as you’ve gone through your careers, especially with such a variety of experiences?

DR: The biggest challenge for me was starting a business. It’s something I always wanted to do, but I don’t think it’s something I would have done had I not partnered with Honora. I had all of these ideas, and would think about names that a potential company would be called, or how it would serve its community, but I never could have formulated what This X That is today. I think it really took true collaboration, and a true partnership, and that’s what we have with each other. That kind of relationship-building has been most successful with our clients and collaborators as well.

HS: Personally, a big challenge has been getting out of my head and into the world, and to truly collaborate, be open and flexible, be vulnerable, and to accept the vulnerability of others. I’ve been very lucky in life, but I’ve also had - and this is something that’s not talked about enough in the media - personal financial challenges as a young adult. In particular, navigating low-wage culture industry work, freelance work, and learning to understand my responsibilities to myself and to others and how to actually manage and plan for my financial future. I learned a lot of lessons the hard way, but I think these challenges ended up being the ultimate preparation for starting a business, and especially starting a business as a woman because some of those lessons were about believing in, advocating for, and protecting my value. Today, Danielle and I come to the table determined not only to advocate for what we are worth, but also for what our clients are worth, both financially and otherwise.

I really appreciate you talking about this, not only because I can relate, but because I know so many others who can too. Financial setbacks play a big role in young people’s start in the industry and affect their later career trajectory in the field.

HS: Absolutely, and it’s a challenge for our young clients who are starting studios as well. We want to make sure we’re there to help them through that.

“Danielle and I come to the table determined not only to advocate for what we are worth, but also for what our clients are worth, both financially and otherwise.”

Who are you both admiring right now?

HS: I’m constantly inspired by women who have found ways to be advocates for social justice or contribute to the health of their communities within their chosen professions, or women who are otherwise aligning their values with the resources and impact they have at hand. My friend Eva Yazhari, who runs an organization called Beyond Capital, an impact investment fund, comes to mind. Within the cultural field, I’m admiring the artists, curators, and gallerists who are dedicated to bringing counter narratives and forgotten stories to life.

DR: In addition to admiring the work that our clients are doing, I’m also admiring our friends and colleagues also working on the periphery of the discipline like SFMOMA Curator Jennifer Dunlop Fletcher who is exploring contemporary housing issues in San Francisco with architect Tatiana Bilbao; and Beatrice Galilee, curator and Executive Director of The World Around, a new platform for architecture and design discourse. Both Jennifer and Beatrice are both shaping how we as a public think about and engage with contemporary architecture through exhibition and public programming.

Finally, what advice do you have for those just starting their careers in this field?

HS: My advice would be to remain open to the idea that there are things you’ve never heard of. The internet doesn’t contain everything - you still have to read and travel and connect with different types of people, and be attentive to context and community. Also, collaborate! Especially with people who know more about what you’re interested in than you do.

DR: It’s not always a clear path, but I’ve found the most rewarding opportunities and careers come from creating your own way. Through the process of exploration via research, travel and collaboration, you can discover so much, both about yourself and the work you want to be doing.