A Shared Legacy: Robert P. Madison International's Sandra and Maya Madison on Sharing Knowledge, Intertwining Experiences, and Loving Architecture
By Julia Gamolina
Sandra Madison is the CEO, Chairperson, and Partner at Robert P. Madison International, the first Black-owned architectural firm in Ohio. Maya Madison is an architect and project manager there, having worked previously at various firms in New York. In their interview with Julia Gamolina, the mother-daughter duo talk about intertwined experiences, shared values, and knowledge sharing, advising those entering a family business to achieve clarity of roles early.
JG: I’m especially excited about this interview because so many people that I’ve spoken to say that their father or grandfather was an architect, but I don’t think anyone has yet said, “My mother was an architect.” I’ve been wanting to do a mother-daughter interview for a long time!
My first question is for Maya – growing up, what do you remember about being exposed to architecture?
MM: For the most part, what I remember about my mom and my dad – because my dad is also an architect – is that they didn’t speak much about the profession to me, however, through osmosis I did pick up on what it was like. I remember days of going into the office on weekends, and that they worked a lot [laughs], but also that they created a lot of drawings and models. Architecture seemed very mysterious in some ways – the line drawings were seemingly a different language – but I could tell that it was a very creative profession.
Why did you then decide to pursue it yourself?
MM: Architecture wasn’t a track I was interested in during high school at all, and my guidance counselor was the one who suggested the profession to me! I was leaning more towards graphic or fashion design, but my guidance counselor knew my family history and knew my strengths in math and art and suggested that architecture might be a good marriage of all the things that I liked. She’d say, “The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree!”
She suggested I visit architecture schools just in case I changed my mind and during these visits is when it clicked for me. I really enjoyed learning about the programs, and seeing the studio environments.
American Legion Community Annex Addition Rendering. Design proposal for the expansion of the American Legion Community spaces. Courtesy of Robert P. Madison International, Inc.
Cleveland Clinic Neurological Institute Rendering by Hopkins Architects. Design Architect: Hopkins Architects. Architect of Record: Stantec with Robert P. Madison International as the MBE Consultant having a major role in the core and shell documentation. Courtesy of Robert P. Madison International, Inc.
It sounds like you pursued architecture for the right reasons! Sandy, my next question is for you – and this is so funny to me, I feel like I’m conducting an interview on childhood development right now [laughs] — but I’d love to ask you what experiences growing up for Maya you specifically curated versus things that you had to do for yourself, and you had a child, so you did them together.
SM: One thing I knew for sure was that I didn’t want to steer either of my kids in any direction. I wanted my son and my daughter to find their own ways. One thing I noticed about Maya when she was young, was that she was very intentional about every line that she drew. I recall her drawing a tree when she was about three or four. She’d draw a line, and then step back and look at it and consider what she had drawn so far…it was just very intentional! I remember thinking, “How does she know what she’s doing?”
Then, her preschool teacher said to me, “You know, your daughter is very artistic.” So, I started paying attention and I noticed when we were out that she would look at the artwork around her. From there, I would buy her paint and chalk and things like this for Christmas and birthdays – anything to do with art. And she loved it! I also taught her to crochet, knit, and sew, because all of those things are a part of design. We then enrolled her in summer classes at the Cleveland Institute of Art – I just made sure to expose her to as much art as possible.
“Business owners can sometimes work in the business more than they work on the business and Maya will step outside of it, see the big picture, and suggest ways to evolve.”
One anecdote I’ll share is that I exposed Maya to an event that was comprised of a three-minute art presentation called PechaKucha. A friend of mine brought this presentation style to Cleveland, and I asked Maya, who was in high school at the time, if she’d be interested in presenting her artwork. I was really curious to see how she’d be at presenting; architects have to present a lot and you can’t be afraid to do this.
When the time came, I was the one that was anxious [laughs]! She was next to me, and I kept asking her if she was doing okay. She said, “Mom, I’ve got this, leave me alone!” When she got up on that stage, let me tell you, Julia, I didn’t recognize her as a person. She presented with so much conviction, and had all these little jokes she would share in her presentation. People were laughing and they were entertained! That’s when I thought, “Maybe there’s something here, maybe she is cut out for architecture.” But, I never pushed her – architecture is not an easy profession and you have to really love it. I knew that if she was going to stick it out, she’d have to love it and come to that decision on her own.
When you were in architecture school, Maya, did you go to Sandra for any sort of advice or guidance, or did you try to keep things separate?
MM: I certainly did both – architecture school is stressful, and I was definitely calling mom and dad during hard times.
As we all did – my parents aren’t architects but they definitely got a lot of late evening phone calls from me [laughs].
MM: Right. If I had a hard night, or a terrible review, I would call and say, “I don’t know if this is for me.” It was good to speak to someone in the profession about this because they had gone through it and were able to empathize that architecture school is hard.
I didn’t seek their advice in terms of design however, because I wanted to prove that I was pursuing the profession for me, and that I could do this on my own. I didn’t want to have a leg up in studio because my parents were architects, so I tried to figure out a lot of things on my own.
When I entered the work world, I also tried to pave my own path. For this reason, I came to New York City from Syracuse, instead of going back to Cleveland, and I found my own community of people. I joined a lot of different professional organizations like NOMA to find my crew, but also to have friends in the industry to bounce ideas off of. I tried to be as independent of my family as I could.
Rocket Mortgage Fieldhouse Renovation and Addition. Architect: Gensler with Robert P. Madison International Inc. as the MBE Consultant designing many of the interior spaces. Robert P. Madison International Inc. was the architect of record for the original building constructed in 1994. Courtesy of Robert P. Madison International, Inc.
Karamu House Jelliffe Theater. Architect: Robert P. Madison International. Renovation, addition and ADA upgrade for the oldest Black theater in the country located in Cleveland’s Fairfax neighborhood. The Jelliffe Theater was a part of phase one and the building is currently in phase three of construction. Courtesy of Robert P. Madison International, Inc.
Cleveland Municipal School District – Halle K-8 School. Architect: Robert P. Madison International. New construction school in Cleveland’s near west side. Courtesy of Robert P. Madison International, Inc.
SM: And I have to say, she was! Maya is a very strong-willed and independent person. I found that out when I was trying to help her with her portfolio late at night when she was applying to jobs, and I was advising her on how to put it together. I remember her saying, “That’s all wrong, Mom! I’ll just do it myself.”
After she finished, I asked her, “Why are you doing it like this?” And when she explained her strategy, it all made sense! She designed it per her vision, and that was a great lesson for us both.
How did you eventually make the decision to work together? Maya, how did you make the decision to join the family business?
MM: Early on in my career, I knew that I wanted to be my own boss at some point and to be honest, working for Robert P. Madison International wasn’t even an option on my radar [laughs]. I wanted to be in New York, and I wanted to start my own thing. Ultimately as I went through the profession, and spoke with other folks who joined family firms, and acquired firms, and I realized that I have a really unique and privileged situation, that both of my parents happen to own a firm.
I asked myself, “Why am I trying to reinvent the wheel?” I recognized that it would be a huge luxury to work with my family who share the same career passions and values as I do. I eventually concluded that not joining the business would be a missed opportunity for me which I did not foresee prior [laughs].
The pandemic also sped up my desire to work here. I was very intentional in how I set up my career experiences prior to joining. I had worked for a variety of firms ranging from a minority-owned six-person studio to a firm with hundreds of employees with multiple studios across the world and a few in-between. I was able to witness some of the processes that are required in running and growing a minority-owned business in the AEC industry. Having worked at different sized firms in New York, I was able to see how companies grow and evolve into different markets, and I thought, with a lot of hard work, that this is something we could do as well.
What is working together like? How much space versus symbiosis do you need?
SM:T hat’s an interesting question. In a way, we’ve always had this dynamic. Maya always listened to advice but she also always made her own decisions and she always brings a fresh eye. We’ve also always respected each other’s views, and how we work together, even though we’re different in many ways. Maya has already brought some very interesting ideas into the firm, and we’ve been impressed with the knowledge that she has! This isn’t just with Maya either, it’s how we run our firm – we listen to different ideas and we listen to our employees. We have a mother-daughter relationship of course, but in terms of our professional relationship, I would say that we balance each other in different ways.
MM: The other unique part about this is that with me currently being based in New York, there’s space and separation. I think our relationship though is what it has always been — I tend to speak to my parents in the same way and about the same things that I did when I was working for other firms; that dynamic hasn’t really changed.
“It’s always good to intertwine people’s experiences – both junior and senior members of the industry – it’s important to listen to each other and understand that both parties bring something valuable to the table.”
What’s also interesting about this is that often, people can be afraid of “the boss” and only tell the boss what she wants to hear. However, with your dynamic, I feel like you can be very real with each other, which is ultimately good for the company.
MM: To that, I think I reflect what others feel in the office.
SM: Right, and I tell her and other employees that this is a safe space – we can talk about anything, because this is as safe as it’s going to get.
You’re both incredibly lucky. On a slightly separate note, what do you both feel like you’ve learned in these last six months?
MM: For me, coming into a family firm, I’ve learned - and am actively learning - how to balance family and being an employee in the office. The professional world prior to the pandemic had been very strict in that you keep your work and your personal life separate, but when working with family, that strategy isn’t realistic. Learning how to remind myself, “This is my mom, but this is also my boss,” has been a learning curve. I also of course don’t want to be seen as the boss’s daughter, so walking that line has been interesting and is still a work in progress.
I’ve also learned that showing up as your true authentic self to work is important. I think as a woman of color in this industry, I’ve been programmed to stifle my femininity and my Blackness to not stand out. And I’ve realized that showing up in meetings, when I am usually the only Black woman on the Teams call, as myself, with big gold hoop earrings on, is a way for people to get accustomed to seeing women and minorities in our profession.
Lastly, I know now that my passions concretely lie in core-and-shell envelope documentation [laughs]. I like large, complex buildings as well as buildings that contribute to the greater good of society. I feel like I’ve finally figured out my focus and now it’s time to build on that.
Sandra, what about you?
SM: I’ve learned that there are a lot of ways that we can work to make the office better. Maya has worked at several other practices, and tells us all the time how other firms are doing things. Business owners can sometimes work in the business more than they work on the business and Maya will step outside of it, see the big picture, and suggest ways to evolve. I’ve seen a lot of that in the last six months.
What advice do you both have for those in a family business?
SM: You have to know who you’re working with and what you’re getting into. If you know that you don’t get along with a family member, that will of course affect how you work with them. We have a very close family and know each other very well, so it worked out for us. We respect each other and have a very good relationship — the whole family is here now, my son too, and that is very interesting [laughs].
MM: I agree with that, I think being real about the type of relationship you have with your family is very important. One piece of advice I got from a colleague who is in a family business is that if you’re comfortable, and if it makes sense for the relationship, don’t be afraid to sign contracts up front. This can be a touchy subject; it’s almost like talking about a prenuptial agreement. But I think if everyone has a common understanding and agreement about roles, and what everyone is meant to be doing for the business, you will move forward together much more successfully.
My last question for you both is, what is your advice for all of us who are working inter-generationally within firms? We hear so much about millennial workers being this and that, or about more senior members of companies not embracing new platforms quickly – what advice do you have there, for how to communicate with those in a different generation than you?
MM: Listen to each other. There is a misconception that people that are older know everything and that their way of doing things is the best way, but I think younger generations bring their expertise in technology, social media, and much more. It’s always good to intertwine people’s experiences – both junior and senior members of the industry – it’s important to listen to each other and understand that both parties bring something valuable to the table.
SM: Absolutely – I don’t have much to add to that. Both Maya and I both bring unique experiences to the table, so working together is a win-win. I see it as a wonderful combination of knowledge.
Thank you both – is there anything else you’d like to say?
MM: I would just add that I am extremely grateful and privileged to have a mom who’s also an architect. With the number of Black female architects in the United States being in the 500s, I’ve come to realize how rare it is. Having grown up seeing my mom, dad, and great uncle work so hard, I didn’t need to seek out examples of architects that looked like me because I lived with them. During the difficult times throughout my career when I didn’t think I could do it, I was lucky to be able to think back to my family and specifically my mom to realize that I could do it. I feel incredibly privileged for that.
You get to pay it forward, Maya. Thank you both so much.
Photograph of Sandy with young Maya sitting on her lap. Courtesy of Maya Madison.